In an attempt to better explain my position, I want to argue the two main points I heard proponents making.
1. Sharia Courts are only limited to civil matters.
I can think of only a few things more damaging to a society than civil matters being settled under religion-based laws. And as hard as I try, I can't understand why the proponents choose to ignore the FACT that Muslim Arbitration Tribunals and Sharia Courts are discriminatory, especially against women and children.
One year after Sharia Courts started operating in UK, crime correspondent Richard Edwards published an article with some interesting findings. From August 2007 to September 2008, Muslim Tribunal Courts have dealt with six cases of domestic violence between married couples and. In each of these cases, the judges ordered the husbands to take anger management classes. There was no further punishment and all six wives withdrew the police complaints they had filed.
In another case of inheritance dispute, the estate of a Midlands man was divided between his two sons and three daughters. The judges gave the sons twice as much as the daughters.
I am only mentioning a couple of cases to point out what should be to no one's surprise : the discriminatory nature of these Courts.
Under Sharia, sons inherit twice as much as daughters. A man's testimony is worth more than a woman's. A husband can divorce his wife simply by repudiating her, while the wife must provide "valid" reasons for divorce, which are usually very difficult to prove. Also, a woman's marriage contract is between her husband and her male guardian. A divorced woman who remarries loses custody of her children. And the list can go on.
2. It's their choice.
Proponents also argue the voluntary nature of Sharia Courts. That if both parties agree, then it's nobody's business to judge the rulings as being arbitrary/discriminatory. But the reality is that both parties do NOT agree, that's why they appeal to the Court's ruling. You file a case in Civil Court when you think you've been hurt financially or physically. And while the proponents argue that Sharia Courts are an alternative, just another option available to Muslims, the reality is that for many people this actually means taking away the only option to a fair hearing. How can a Muslim woman stand up against her family and community and ultimately, against God's system of law, when such a system is "available" ? And how many of these women are even aware of their rights under secular laws ?
Feel free to comment.
As an end note, I have to expresse that I am simply appalled by how many people think that implementing religious Courts of Law in secular societies is a good idea, even when confronted with the text and application of these laws.
I do defend people's right to practice their religion freely. But I can't, for the life of me, accept religion as a legal authority. Not in civil matters, not in any matters.
53 comments:
One problem with instituting Sharia Law in the US: it would be in contravention of the US Constitution and several centuries of jurisprudence. I can't even get to questioning any other reasons, that's the first bar that it cannot overcome.
I fully agree with you.
While I find ALL religions to be highly annoying, I would love to have Sharia Law instituted in the U.S. just to see if Glenn Beck's head pops off.
If Beck's head would pop, it might be worth it after all!
We just passed a convoluted law here in Oklahoma that bans Sharia courts. The law is a bit of a mess, but I'm really shocked that anyone in any Western society would approve of Sharia law taking the place of the law we've developed through secular modernity, particularly when we're fully aware of the inequalities and barbarism inherent in those laws.
Your argument about #2 is compelling, but here's the question: how do you compel those same people, who feel bound by culture/community/belief, to not enter binding arbitration -- which then takes the form of a Sharia court? In the United States, that decision would almost certainly be protected under the First Amendment.
I'm not saying that Sharia courts are a good idea; I'm saying in the United States, they're probably impossible to get rid of without changing the US Constitution. Obviously mutatis mutandis sit for one's own nation's laws.
(Just to clarify: I'm talking about Sharia for civil matters, not for criminal matters. Criminal matters are in the hands of the State or the Federal Government.)
Diversity and Multiculturalism: The New Racism
Sharia Courts are already active in the US. In the UK they are already delving into criminal law by adjudicating violent attacks on women and a knife attack on a man. Canada is the only country to outlaw Sharia. The Muslim Council of Canada has excellent articles on why Sharia is bad.
First, great post, meny thanks
I feel ur argument in "its a choice" part is not what i would pursue.
They did agree on the low for which they accept its ruling and that has nothing to do with their dispute.
they agreed as anyone wants to get justice by going to court and the court being accepted by both parties as a place to get justice.
anyhow, i would argue on this matter by saying you cant have 2 or more legal system in any country, the low of the country should apply to all with no exceptions. simply putting lows for some not others is a plain discrimination.
Imagine special interest pll given that chance to have their own lows, no way, no country would allow that to happen. so why is exception made for religious court?
if 2 ppl are willing to take sharia low, then fine, they go to IMAM "whatever they call it" in their mosque and get a ruling with sharia low, but the justice system and court of low has absolutely nothing to do with this, and it has absolutely no value as ruling in the legal system and any agreement made to abide by this kind of ruling has no value in the justice system.
In anther word, this is not official, twice for boys as its for girls is not supported by the legal system and it should not be, simply becoz this is not justice in the eyes of a democratic just nation.
any approval of this, and then enforcing such ruling after it has been made, is totally against what those nations do stand for.
so yah, u can do it, but in the legal system it has no value.
Thank you
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@Cristina: I agree with your points and I think the second case could be even better represented and more compeling if we take into account the fact that in islam the authority hierachy is piramidal and the children and the women are at the bottom having over them, in a somewhat random order, their hubands, their parents, their imams, their higher religious leaders (e.g.: ayatolahs).
If you want to have a sight (and some laughs) at the authority scheme in islam, you can check my series (in Romanian) „Mohamed, islamul și falsa autoritate”.
BTW, I recommend the Sceptici în România podcast, too.
Yet another great post from a free, logical thinker and clear courageous communicator.. Much respect.
I don't really give a fuck, tbh. If the primitives want to oppress each other, let them. Western civilization is a lost cause anyway, time to reboot this bitch on the high seas.
NO, you have fallen prey to demagoguery. There is no such thing as sharia courts no matter what they are called.
There is such a thing as binding arbitration that is voluntarily entered into. This arbitration can take the form of Sharia, but it could be Christian, Napoleonic, or Star Trek based. If you get rid of "Sharia Courts" you are selectively depriving Muslims of binding arbitration. A right which everyone else has.
Your claim that this is not voluntary entered into because the parties disagree which is why they have to go to court in the first place is a category error. They are not agreeing on what sharia law says about their case, they are agreeing on the idea that sharia law should be used.
I can not speak directly about the 6 domestic violence cases you mentioned because I am not familiar with them, but I can say that sharia courts NEVER have the power to dismiss a criminal case. In most western countries the victim does. It sounds like these women were satisfied to drop the case in exchange for better behavior by their husbands and psychological treatment to help them behave better. This happens in minor or ambiguous cases of domestic violence in western courts all the time. In most western courts it is nearly impossible to prosecute without the cooperation of the victim.
On the point that these women's culture and religion push them into Sharia corts. That is almost certainly true. That definately does suck. Nevertheless consider the following points.
1) Is it worth throwing the whole system of arbitration out because some people might be coerced into it?
2) In any western country any woman, Muslim or not, is able to walk away from any religion or marriage despite the coercion.
3) Wouldn't it be better to handle this serious problem through education and resource centers for Islamic women much like how the battered women problem is being dealt with in regular secular society.
Why do all your comments always fill up with US centralism, its a bit strange as you are not American.
As a Muslim woman i'm tired of people using me and their perceived "bad deal" that i have as a woman in Islam as a tool against my Muslim brothers and even my religion. It has been my experience that Muslim men, my brothers, treat me far better than Western nonMuslim men do. So please stop using us, their sisters, as tools against them.
We are Muslim women and we do not need your help. We do not need you to save us.
If we inherit less than our men, we know why. It doesn't matter to us whether you know why or not. We know and we accept. It doesn't mean we sit back and let the men do whatever they like to us. You obviously have never met any Muslim woman if you think we are all passive, weak creatures. And to see that you think we would just sit back if our men were to abuse our children! Is this what it has come down to? There's no better way to demonize a people than to say that they don't even care about their own children.
We love our brothers, we love Islam, and most importantly, we love Allah. Consider us brainwashed if you will but we are happy in our religion and we just want to be left alone.
From a Muslim woman.
@ maxomai : I understand your hesitation, but you must realize that, even if the woman in a civil matter "willingly" submits herself to "binding arbitration" in a sharia court, her willingness may be under threat. In any event, there will be no fairness in a decision by a court of all men who believe that men are innately superior to all women.
If we ever allow sharia courts for civil matters, how far behind can criminal matters be? In the US we would consider the choice of a house of worship or of a god to worship to be civil matters, but to a Muslim cleric they are much more. To a Muslim, apostasy is a capital crime. Where is there freedom in that? Would you tolerate a separate system in the US that allowed a citizen to be stoned to death for "dishonoring" her family or to have his hand cut off for stealing? Citizenship here gives certain rights that no religious court can breach.
The US law is that no person or group can be given special rights or status based upon religion, sex, race, or gender.
The allowance of a shariah court would therefore be illegal right from its implementation regardless of what heinous acts the shariah court may choose to allow and which would otherwise be illegal under state or federal law - such as an honor killing or beating your wife.
Contrary to popular belief the US is not a democracy, its a republic. A republican government protects minority rights based on the rule of law. The laws apply to all equally. Its this way to keep 51% of the people from condemning to death the other 49%. Thanks be to that darned Constitution that keeps getting in the tyrants way.
Don't know about the UK, but a shariah law court in the US would get shot down by the federal courts so fast it would make allah blush.
off topic
do you have a profile on intelligentelite.com ?
The issue is more complex. In law people can agree to arbitration at the time of the contract. In other words they say it will be governed by certain principles. That's ok.
You say that your workplace dress code might not allow the burka. But what about the Sikh turban or the Jewish skullcap. We can't discriminate using dress code as an excuse.
The next problem is that sometimes (maybe rarely) Shariah law actually makes sense. In hot climates without refrigeration it is better to bury a body quickly.
In the West laws vary as to the waiting period before a divorce is effective. In England I was not able to get divorced until I had been married for a certain period (maybe two years).
Why should we impose that on those with rules with different requirements?
The fact is that divorce by consent is commonplace and needs sanction in court.
Being flexible shouldn't be a problem.
I saw a link to your video on Face book. Really good commentary - kudos.
I was with you regarding Sharia law, then I read the blog and it made me think of something that is sort of parallel. In other contexts two parties can opt for binding arbitration, without recourse to an appeal. I am not sure how voluntary Sharia (or Christian or Jewish) courts are different. I actually don't like these clauses for non-binding arbitration without a right of appeal because in general the consent is coerced to one extent or another - exampling being an employer making it a term of employment or a vendor a condition of a purchase.
You're missing one point there Cris in #2. The sides dont agree on the solution to their common problem. However they may agree on the point of which criteria should be taken in consideration. When they want sharia they should have the option to choose that however it should be mandatory to give both sides instructions on how they can go to a normal court.
"How can a Muslim woman stand up against her family and community and ultimately, against God's system of law, when such a system is "available" ?"
They can just stand up and go. If you take away the sharia law basicly nothing will change for the discriminated people. Do you think that an abused woman would even try and go to a sharia court to ask for help when they know that its OK from islams POV?
Please read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitration Why should religion be banned from organising arbitration? Dont you think that if someone would even want to be stoned to death for having sex outside of mariage we should let them?
I absolutely agree with this. Just because it's part of someone's religion doesn't mean it's O.K. or respectable. Sharia law needs a strong voice against it and hopefully one day it will be a thing of the past.
I can find glaring flaws in both the arguments you've already torn apart.
1) Limited to only civil matters. Civil litigation in the U.S. is by far one of the most convoluted and exploitable legal systems in existence. You can sue anyone for anything. Throwing Sharia law into the mix would only introduce MORE sexism and barbarism into an already flawed and delicate practice. Civil law is an easy way to ruin someone's life. Not only that, what would you do when one party has a different religion from the other? Who's laws suddenly apply? Sharia or secular? Christian or Taoist? No, one law for all. That's the way it should be. What happened to "equality for all men(and women)"?
2) It's their choice. Hello? IT'S THE LAW. It's not a choice. You don't get to pick and choose the laws you wish to abide by when it suits you. One does not choose whether or not to live by the laws. I can't just choose to murder my neighbor today because revenge is legal in ancient Japanese law, then call the police on his brother tomorrow when he comes after me because murder is illegal. Since when has choice ever been a part of law? Why would it suddenly become a part of it now?
If Sharia law ever gets implemented in the U.S. I'm going to go old testament on some new "court houses" that fine their way into my city.
well you are a rumenian not a islamite
your comments are parcial und xenophobic
The judge is the key factor
not the sharia
multumescu
she is fundamentally right in both her facts and analysis. period.
Sorry, but as some commenters before have already pointed out, you are wrong on this one.
The "Sharia Courts" are courts of arbitration. Everyone can bring one's case in front of a tribunal which then provides the two parties with a legally binding judgement. No matter whether that tribunal applies Islamic, Jewish, or Klingon law. If you want to argue for abolishing "Sharia Courts", you have to argue for abolishing all courts of arbitration.
I watched ur videos and I'm really too impressed how a young and beautiful woman could be too inteligent and smart. And looks strong.
Excellent work
im with ^muslim woman on this one. if they want some special judge, so be it. we have native courts (tribal law). while you may see other cultures as being repressive to women, i doubt the women in that culture see it that way.
personal example: i am circumcised. not by choice, but by some form of sadistic, culturally acceptable mutilation. im not about to have an elective surgery to patch me up, however...i can live without it.
do i think clitoridectomies are wrong? yes. can i fault anyone for putting their children through either procedure? not really. its their culture.
Here in the US, we have a woman running for President in 2012 who wants to institute Sharia Law. Her name is Sarah Palin and she has said that all US law should be based on the Christian bible.
I do agree with your point of view for a number of reasons. The most important one is the obvious fact that every nation has already established it's own set of laws that apply to all of it's citizens as well as non-citizens who are either living there or visiting. We simply can't create a whole separate set of rules that only apply to one segment of society. Most if not all western nations have the freedom of religion but also don't allow one religion to be established as a state religion. Sharia Law is completely based on a particular religion so this is in direct conflict with the existing laws that are already on the books. I'm afraid that this is political correctness that's justy gone too far.
Bob Redfern, Nashville, Tennessee
Is it really the "the discriminatory nature of these Courts" or is the discriminatory nature of this religion? (which is not unique to Islam of course). It's a bit like saying that you're free to be a Moslem, up to a point - when you offend my liberal sensibilities (which I agree with you 100% on), then the line gets drawn.
This is the fundamental contradiction at the heart of liberal democracies - how do you balance individual freedom and universal rights with the individual's desire to sign up to a religion which is counter to those rights and freedoms.
I'm very much inclined to agree with the OP on this one. The balance between acknowledging and giving due respect to diverse belief systems, and allowing subsections of the population to effectively secede from the mainstream legal system is a pretty difficult one to find.
The entire point of setting in place a legal system, in the first instance, is to establish a set of accepted moral nroms and behavioural requisites for those wishing to reside within a given jurisdiction or area. It's effectively a set of rules by which every citizen agrees to live simply by virtue of being a part of that community, and I think it has to transcend cultural, class and religious boundaries. Allowing subcultures to self-govern completely defeats the point, and you end up with what is essentially anarchy.
Of course these religious communities will find ways to self-govern to a limited extent, and will discriminate and exact justice according to their own "laws", but while this is a widely accepted truism, society at large cannot be seen to condone or even accept it.
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/p18588.xml
I completely agree with you. But I do think it's not possible to get the Sharia in courts in other coountries. I see many Americans already mention it.
It wouldn't be possible in the States, or for instance Belgium (where I'm from) because it's in our constitution that we are a secular state. The big problem with the UK is that they don't have a real Constitution like you know in the States or Belgium. Therefore I find it highly unlikely to see this atrocity happening elsewhere!
We do have a terrorist organisation (against which the Belgium governement does NOTHING) it's called "Sharia4Belgium". It's a daughter organisation of "Sharia4UK" and the name says enough! I really don't think it's possible to have the sharia applied. That would mean a change of constitution. Even though that's possible here, it's very difficult!
I do find it appaling that it's happening in the UK!
I actually thought it remained with 'an idea' not an actual execution of those courts!
Islam and every other religion for that matter still live in the Middle Ages. The fact that the UK went back in time is terrifying!
For years I have observed civilization's downfall.
There is no saving it now. We have crossed beyond the point of no return.
I like the video. yo
"Anonymous said...
For years I have observed civilization's downfall.
There is no saving it now. We have crossed beyond the point of no return."
As much as I'm inclined to agree, a lack of social activism is not the solution.
The faithful have the social upper hand in that they can make claims they see as irrefutable, and refuse change their view of the world once the indoctrination laid upon them is set in place, and have a congregation of the willfully ignorant to follow them.
To put legal matters into the hands of religion is a step backwards. That has happened before and has led to unchecked corruption, which leads to social revolution after a few generations of miserable people. Unless you think the dark ages were a rollicking good time. Then, shit, let's try it all again! BURN THE WITCH!!!!!! At its conception, as a form of pre-governmental control, religion had a place. We have advanced as a people. Why is it so hard to admit that our superstitious ancestors were wrong?
Those who have only logic must instead get talked down to by the loud, ignorant, faithful masses. No matter how much evidence is supplied, the faithful pride themselves on their ability to ignore logic and reasoning and follow the guidance of people they have never met.
I choose to have a kind of blind faith of my own: faith in humanity. It is much like religion in that it has shaky foundations at best, and no matter how many times my faith is shaken, it somehow returns. Is my faith unfounded? Illogical? Probably. It is a much more useful belief than a religion in my life. Mind you, i think it is kind of foolish at times. But stoics don't tend to make the world any better.
Cristina, thank you for holding up a message for all to see, no matter how many closed eyes and minds are in the crowd. Keep up the good work.
The religious fight for their beliefs. Atheists have, oftentimes, a much more important battle; to save the world from the out of control downward spiral a divided humanity, torn by the antiquated religious factions, has created.
"This is the fundamental contradiction at the heart of liberal democracies - how do you balance individual freedom and universal rights with the individual's desire to sign up to a religion which is counter to those rights and freedoms."
That's easy; they signed up for it.
If you're a Muslim who lives in a Western country your rights and freedoms are not restricted by Islam unless you fully submit yourself to the doctrines of the religion; and even then your rights and freedoms remain unaffected. If you convert to Islam one day, then wake up the next morning and decide you can't be arsed to do your prayers for that day, or that you're not going to go to mosque or that you fancy a bacon sandwich, that's up to you. If your chosen Islamic community declares you an apostate heretic blasphemer and ostracises you for doing these things, you can go and find another one; or set up your own. If they try to subject you to 'holy judgement' through threats of physical violence, or actual violence, you can go to the police and have them arrested.
Personal choice is personal, and stupid people are stupid.
As to the actual issue of sharia courts in the UK... I like the irony in the 'One Law For All' campaign, which deplores Sharia tribunals (they're tribunals, not courts, and unless there is a sea-change in the political landscape in the UK they never will be) yet makes no mention whatsoever of the Beth-Din tribunals that Orthodox Jews have been running in London and Birmingham for the past... 150 years.
These tribunals were set up for much the same reasons that Muslims want sharia tribunals; that is, the religio-ethnic group in question does not feel properly 'served' by secular statutes, and feels more comfortable having it's disputes settled by holy men using scripture rather than by an actual judge using law. As I said before, stupid person is stupid... but personal choice is personal.
I suspect the reason nobody gives a shite about the beth-din system is because Orthodox Jewish law is nowhere near as misogynistic as sharia law. Which sort of raises the question; if sharia law wasn't so misogynistic, would anyone care about sharia tribunals?
"We love our brothers, we love Islam, and most importantly, we love Allah. Consider us brainwashed if you will but we are happy in our religion and we just want to be left alone.
From a Muslim woman."
A clear example of brainwashing. The pot calls the kettle black. Keep loving ur "Allah" and be a good slave. This is whats requested from u. From all the Muslim women, in this case. Be obedient. Be a vegetable. Cancel ur personality and ur free will. Ure not even a human being, nor an animal. Something in between. Im sure u agree the treatment applied to women in some Muslim fundamentalist countries, right? Like delapidation, hanging, whipping, sometimes killing... This is a way ur idiot god shows u his love... Interesting... Go to hell but I think ure already there! One of the most terrible curse: to be a woman in a Muslim country.
Sharia laws in the West? Blame the politicians first. A Western society must remain so, it has nothing to do with Sharia laws. Do Western courts exists in the Muslim countries, especially the fundamentalist ones? Gimme a break...
Santa would win. He would eat baby jesus. That's how he got so fat and jolly.
http://i.imgur.com/qRQNu.gif
This conversation may be relevant in the UK, but in the US the issue is basically an excuse for anti-immigration douchebags to whine about the amount of Arabs in Deaborn. There has been no serious move by any group to institute Shariah anywhere within the borders of the states.
As a rule I'm wary of any legal or social structure that looks like it'd be open to this level of abuse. Given the dominance of males and the very much archaic traditions still very alive in Islam I don't understand why any state would embrace them. It may win you votes and may make you look like a real nice guy but you've essentially written off a whole community as no longer your responsibility.
PS To the pissant who said he has no issue with people tearing their little girl's privates apart; die.
Point 2 reminds me actually of a recent legal dispute in the United States about another private court system: The arbiter system that private military contractors had their employees sign on to. Jamie Leigh Jones is the most famous case. She worked for KBR in Iraq and was gang-raped by 7 fellow employees. The court-arbitration system sided in the company's favor (you know, since it was paid by them) so Jenny Leigh Jones has been spending the past 5 years in a back and forth system of appeals and counter-appeals with Haliburton (KBR's parent company). It's been looking for a year and a half as though the final settlement will be in favor of Jamie Leigh Jones, NOT KBR, meaning that the same situation would apply for Sharia courts in the states.
On the point of coercion, though—community's effectiveness as a coercive force is immutable without regards to legal power (albeit it frivolous legal power that can easily be overridden). I don't think it would make a difference whether or not there were Sharia courts in a system like the US because the coercion would already be there without the court system and the court system itself with be overruled by the US Justice Department. It would just be circulation of muslim money in the US to build things. Hey, though—arbiter courts might not count as religious buildings, so, it's taxable. Oh, and maybe a few talking heads on Fox News having another meaningless thing to complain about.
Here's how you'd actually stop this "Islamification of the US" that people like Pat Condell imagined: Good public schools that Muslim parents can't afford not to send their children to. Imagine religion being taught in humanities (and only humanities)! And they cover all the religious beliefs, past and present, equally, treating them all as equally right! Oh, and don't let anyone opt their children out of sex ed programs, either. Free condoms for all the children!
If education includes wide broadcast of the results of Sharia settlements, then the problem will be self-correcting. If women knew how they would be treated under Sharia, then some would leave while many would never join. After a few generations of attrition of their feminine members, Islam would collapse. All we have to do is let them know there is an alternative, provide them legal recourse to leave their system, and educate enough people as to the consequences of their faith to minimize their ability to recruit.
Without at least some Sharia courts being available to provide examples, they can hide behind propaganda. With such courts, their pride in the superiority of their system will provide all the publicity necessary to educate potential converts.
After all, it has worked well for the Roman Catholic Church and resulted in decline for that particular cult. Publicity and education are the antithesis and nemesis of religious zealotry and recruitment.
There are certain aspects of Sharia law that are already put in the laws of the USA.I think that is sufficient enough.However,certain laws of the USA need to be changed for positive results.
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