Mar 29, 2011

On Libya & the no-fly zone

So I've seen a couple video quite critical of the UN intervention in Libya, claiming that the no-fly zone is just another implementation of American Imperialism in their step-by-step attempt to take control over Libya and its oil.

For those of you who haven't read any news for a while, there's been a major uprising in Lybia against the current leader Muammar Gaddafi and his regime, with the protesters asking for new leadership and democratic elections. Gaddafi's reaction to the protest was not only to start shooting at the demonstrators, but also to surround the cities with tanks and artillery and bomb the shit out of unarmed civilians from both land and air.

In response to Gaddafi's attacks, earlier this month, as part of the Resolution 1973, the UN approved a no-fly zone, which basically prevents libyan military aircrafts from attacking civilian targets. This action was solicited and supported by Libya's deputy ambassador to the United Nations Ibrahim Dabbashi, as well as by the libyan protesters and civilians (though this cannot really be demonstrated).

So why would people oppose the no-fly zone you ask ? In my opinion, because some people are so set against American Imperialism that they decided to characterize this action as such (regardless of the the fact that it was France who initiated the no-fly zone in the first place). They claim that there are no humanitarian reasons behind this action, that the only concern here is Libya's oil supply, and that launching missiles at Libya is in no way helping its people.

While in principle I do agree that "humanitarian bombing" is at least suspicious, if not self-contradictory, I also have to acknowledge that you cannot establish a no-fly zone without military intervention. In order to prevent further attacks on civilians, you HAVE TO take down the military targets on the ground. There's just no way around it. If you think there is an alternative to that, I would sure like to know it.

Something else that comes up constantly is the question "Why Libya?". Why isn't there an intervention in Darfur or Bahrain or Yemen, etc, where the people are also oppressed and there are violent protests and people are getting shot at too.

This reminds me of the Green Revolution in Iran, where the same people were questioning why the media is paying so much attention to Iran and "why not to Egypt, or Libya?" - as they were saying at that time. And if I have to, I might as well start digging up through the pile of comments and videos that have been made since then to demonstrate my point.

While I can very much admit that I am not the most educated person in foreign policies, I can still understand that a UN intervention to Darfur for instance, would be impossible for one obvious reason: Russia. I can also admit that there is vested interest in Libya, which produces about 2% of the world's oil. And yes, it pisses me off too that these political games are basically deciding who should be helped and who should be left ignored. What's happening throughout Middle East with the current uprisings clearly shows that people want change and they are willing to fight for it, even if that means literally fighting against bullets.

But while it is tragic that unarmed protesters are being shot at, there is a difference from that - to entire cities being shelled and surrounded by artillery and people being bombed, like it's been happening in Libya. These people cannot fight the government on their own. If there is also a vested interest for UN to intervene, I still think it's preferable to NOT doing anything and leaving them defenseless.

I think the argument against the intervention in Libya that annoys me the most is "oh, but people don't have it that bad there! They're fine! They even have free education and medical care and such." This is SUCH complete and utter bullshit! In my own country, we also had free education and medical care under the communist dictatorship. We also had no freedom. We couldn't get in and out of the country at will, we didn't have access to information (we had only one TV station and one radio station which basically broad-casted only what the government wanted us to know), we were freezing in the winter because the heat was getting turned off, we were reading at candle-light in the evening because the lights were shut down to save electricity, our homes were not safe because at any point the Security could burst in and interrogate us and search our places with no warning and without having to provide any reason. Anyone who said something that *might be interpreted as speaking against the government* was interrogated and most of the times incarcerated. Anyone who clearly spoke against the government was being shot.

I'm sorry for the digression but it simply infuriates me how narrow-minded can people be sometimes. How can they so ignorantly say that "Libyans are not really that oppressed, ya know" when they NEVER experienced that kind of oppression themselves, when they were born and raised with freedoms and rights that they are now taking for granted and they cannot even imagine living in a world without them. A world where you are so intolerably abused that you prefer to fight against bullets.

In my own country, we had no help. It was almost a "miracle" that the army (who was shooting at people and running them over with tanks) finally took the protester's side and helped them bring Ceausescu down. I was 8 years old when both my parents were facing the tanks because they wanted me to have the liberty to vote on who my leaders will be and to be able to speak my mind without fear of being shot. Muammar Gaddafi is a mass murdering tyrant who's been ruling Libya by force for 42 fucking years. These people cannot fight on their own against bombs.

So no, I don't oppose the no-fly zone. Which doesn't mean that I support imperialism or that I am pro-war (I spoke against the Iraq war numerous times) or that I believe the UN is God's gift to the Middle East or whatever fucking bullshit propaganda you're trying to make me part of.

If you oppose the no-fly zone, my question to you is what's your alternative ? And no, just giving arguments against my arguments will not be sufficient. I want to know what's YOUR proposed solution.

That's about it.


Anonymous said...

Good blog.

The 'they're only doing it for the oil' argument doesn't stack up by the way; deals had been done with Gaddafi (by Blair amongst others) so the West was getting Libyan oil already.

Larry K said...

Well reasoned and written.

Anonymous said...

well put Cris, these questions are never black and white, and i do agree with your analysis of the situation.

Scott Skidmore said...

1st off while we are on the subject of oppression i would like to say free Palestine. about libya, well we have been coerced or somewhat tricked into spending over a billion thus far on what obama claims is to prevent a humanitarian crisis. french military sent their planes first and have not done anything since. where is all the help from the other countries supporting the no fly zone. we are the only ones doing shit about this and spending our billions we dont have. solution is a bunker/ laser guided missile on the dictators location instead of dragging this out to keep our attention from the collapsing economy in have to be living life w/ the blinders on if you believe we cant find someone we want to kill with all the resources and technology currently available

Rooktoven said...

Well thought out and expressed, as usual.


Anonymous said...

I agree with Scott. There should be something done to stop Gaddafi, but I don't think the bulk of the effort should rest on the US. We are already being bankrupted at an alarming rate. But say we do get rid of Gaddaffi, then what? Are the libyan's likely to vote in a leader who is pro-western and peaceful? That seems unlikely given the history of the entire region. A quick look at wiki will show that the entire middle east has basically been starting shit since 2800BC. Until they can figure out a way to abandon aggresion any intervention is unlikely to be succesful. Look at how long we have been in Iraq.
The one thing I desperately wish to see in my lifetime is an end to dependence on oil. With that out of the equation the middle east would be so much easier to deal with.

Anonymous said...

And if I heard Obama correctly last night, the bulk of the effort is being turned over to Nato as of Wednesday.......Well written and well expressed Zom. Intervention in Libya does not have to escalate into another Iraq, and I hope it doesn't.

FederalistFilms said...

Pretty much agree with everything stated here, ma'am.

Josh said...

ah, very good!

Anonymous said...

this is basically a padding out of a quite simplistic position. you are omitting critical factors in your analysis. i'll respond in a video when i get home.


Anonymous said...

What about Bahrain arent those people entitled to the same sort of support from the U.N? or do they not meet the criteria?...Thoughts

yenrio said...

I agree with you Criss, very well argumented as always.

And about the argument: "Why Libya? Why not all the other countries?". What does it mean? That if someone could save a person from being killed, he should not save that person just because he could not save every person in the world from being killed?


Proff.Mark said...

yo you be readin n be watchin cnn yo. dey be lyin to all yall yall ya yo. aiiite, ma nigga?

Anonymous said...

Hey love....stick to dancing. Thanx

eu_unul said...

Cristina, chiar daca interventia in Libia e legitima din punct de vedere al legilor internationale este o tampenie comisa de europeni si americani. Nu e Gaddafi un sfant, e un dictator ca toti dictatorii, la fel a fost si Mubarak, dar nu ai pe cine pune in locul lui. Chestia asta cu "poporul care vrea alegeri democratice" e vorba in vant. Alegerile democratice nu sunt un scop in sine, democratia nu e un scop in sine, acestea sunt doar instrumente ce sunt folosite pentru ca oamenii sa traiasca intr-o societate perfecta. Dar aceste instrumente pot face si bine si rau, depinde de cine le manevreaza. La ora actuala nici egiptenii, nici libienii sau Yemenitii nu sunt pregatiti pentru democratie, pusi fata in fata cu cabina de vot vor alege democratic un regim nedemocratic. Si asta pentru ca le lipsesc concepte esentiale pentru un stat democratic precum libertatea de expresie, libertatea de opinie, egalitatea intre cetateni, separatia puterilor in stat etc.
Revenind la situatia din Libia, europenii nu fac decat sa ajute la instaurarea unui regim islamist la portile Europei, iar asta nu e bine, deloc nu e bine.

Anonymous said...

u spoke my mind.

Ve! said...

For all the smartass "americans" (by smartass I ment dumb shit retarded d'oh) who commented here straight from their asses, what is your official language? Oh what, English? Think again dumbtards, none. Remember The United States of America, that's the name, that's the deal; somewhat of a country more like a federal union/republic.
You know me, no need for the "retards" to find out too.

Anonymous said...

Ve! - what the hell are you talking about? Everyone in the US (well everyone except a few far left liberals who want to ban the Pledge of Allegiance) knows we are a republic.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Notice that is writen in english. Our constitution is also written in english. So what's your point about language?

american dad said...

what the fuck are you talkng about VE?!

As for you criss, you need to do your research . Most of those 'rebels' are refugees from tunisia and other places , not lybian. Kind of like you are Roma in a white country. Khadaffi is a tyrant? Really? Then how the hell none had a problem with him for 40 years?

Stop kissin' ass, you are not really well rounded in this subject. k?

Anonymous said...

oh gosh...i see you won't have anything to discuss 'till TF makes a new video . zzzzz

Michael said...

Thank you for a top-notch post. It's nice to read a viewpoint on current events that is better thought out than most news editorials. If I might add to your thoughts on the subject of "Why Libya, and not Yemen, Darfur, etc.?:"

I think the intelligence analysts have identified Libya as a place where NATO forces have more potential to achieve the desired impact. Even without Russia as a factor, The humanitarian crisis in Darfur may be beyond the scope of military intervention; same goes for Barhain and Yemen.

2 mistakes that I think are common are:

1. Despite Vietnam and Iraq, a myth about the invincibility and all-powerful nature of the U.S. armed forces persists. Witness: Iraq, 8 years later - whatever the plan was, it didn't go right. Yet it is a common assertion that the military should "fix Darfur," at least in my neck of the woods.

2. As you pointed out, every single thing that the U.S. or NATO does is not bad. Personally, I'm keeping an open mind (hope my brain don't fall out, though) about my government and NATO's handling of this horrible situation, and will continue to pay attention.

Thank you for non-dogmatic, excellent thinking. This is the first time I have read your blog; it will not be the last.

Proff.Mark said...

I believe I am the 'smartass', right? Since you missed it, that was a mockery of your lil' borat gypsy girls' broken ebonix/redneck wannabee english she likes to use so much.

Get it NOW, 'smartass'....gypsy?

ocean9 said...

Very well written post Criss, I am also concerned about people in the west who do not appreciate the freedom we have and do not have compassion for the ones who are still fighting for their freedom.

Jessica said...

In the USA they're cutting basic human services that keep people alive, citing that the government is broke. We should not spend hundreds of millions of dollars in Libya to kill people for their oil. Humanitarian reasons are, as they always are, a scam.

Tim Crowninshield said...

Thank you for a well-reasoned and thoughtful commentary, Cristina. Much respect to your parents for facing down tanks in your country's time of crisis. Obviously, courage and activism are in your genes!

Anonymous said...

8.)It would be heartening to think that Qaddafi’s opponents are Western-style democrats-in-waiting, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, a Libyan rebel leader, recently revealed that the ranks of the rebels include jihadists who fought American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. That is consistent with the findings of American military researchers that Libyans, many with ties to the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIGF) that has roots in the breakaway parts of eastern Libya, made up the second-largest cohort of foreign fighters in Iraq, after Saudi Arabia. The military’s West Point academy reports that while the LIFG is not officially affiliated with al-Qaeda, the two organizations share an “increasingly co-operative relationship.” Is it the “aspirations” of such allies that the U.S. is in Libya to defend? 9.)Our actions in Libya have cost us BILLIONS already. You support the NATO actions in Libya then you go tell the Romanian president to waste your countries billions on fighting it. 10.)Joe Biden, when he was a candidate in December 2007, said that if President Bush had gone ahead to attack Iran without congressional authorization, that he would move to impeach him. President Obama said the president doesn’t have the power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation… My reading of the Constitution is consistent with the people who are now president and vice president.Obama lied people died.

My solution: Do nothing. Let them fight their own civil-war. Non-action is not immoral when America's interests are not threatened in any way shape or form. The Criss/Obama/Bush doctrine of sacrificing our-selves for others has to stop or these wars which bleed us of our treasure and get our fellow citizens killed will be perpetual.

Anonymous said...

You support enforcing the Libyan no-fly-zone but did not support enforcing the Iraqi no fly zone? You should know if you support the Libyan No-fly zone by defualt you have supported regime change and nation building because that is how this is going to end. Even Obama admited that's pretty much the out come he really wants in Libya last night in his wrongheaded speech. They aren't going to leave Qaddafi in power, So get that fantasy out of your head. FYI: America already has Marines on the ground in Libya. Don't believe me?

Let's look at some facts for why you're a hypocrite and neo-con at heart...

With Bush and even clinton there was debate with Obama no debate.

1.)Obama did not have Congressional Approval.
1a.) Bush did have Congressional Approval.
2.) Obama tried International Diplomacy
2a.) Bush tried International Diplomacy
3.) Obama had U.N. approval. 3a.)Bush had U.N. approval. 4.) 2003 invasion of Iraq was backed by 40 countries, while only 15 have backed Obama's Libyan mission. Infact, your country was on the ground in Iraq. Not to mention, the Arab league has now traded on America and NATO as soon as civilians were killed and Germany pulled out. 5.) Gaddafi has oil and killed his own citizens. 5a.) Saddam had oil and killed his own citizens. 6.)How was Libya a actual threat let alone a immediate threat to America? Libya was taken off the state sponser of terrorism list. Ironically, Libya gave up its WMD program after witnessing the invasion in Iraq. Our strategic national interest is non-existent: Libya has far less oil reserves, supplying 2% of the world’s oil, and does not have the ability to threaten shipping lanes like Iran. 6a.)Saddam was a state sponsor of terrorism and wanted everyone to think he still had a WMD program. The latter of which with the power of hindsight we now know everyone wrongly bought into. Not to mention, In the 90's he burned his oil wells. 7.) If the crux of the issue is about a government brutalizing its own citizens, why hasn’t Obama sent troops in to Sudan, Uganda, Ethiopia, Chechnya, Burma, Uzbekistan? Or if it is about human rights and democracy, then why hasn’t Obama launched and attack on China, North Korea, Nepal, or Cuba? Why Libya? Why not Iran, a country that has called for the execution of opposition leaders? Why not Saudi Arabia, a country that has sent its military to crush the determination of its people in Bahrain? What is the standard and reasoning? You can do all the Monday morning quarterbacking you want now, but in 2002-03, the United States considered Iraq a national security threat. Is Libya currently considered a threat to the United States? As I already pointed out the answer is Nope

pappacapp said...

Hi Criss,

Love your Blogs/Videos/Tweets and I very much agree with your post.

IMHO much of the press (Especially in North America where I live) is devoted to constant repetition of talking points Ad Nauseum into the media echo chamber at maximum volume in an effort to confuse the truth. Conservative pundits in the U.S. seem to be simultaneously criticizing Obama for being to reluctant to intervene, to slow to start bombing, too hasty in going to war without Congressional approval. They say he should have started the intervention a month ago, and so now it's too late and so now he shouldn't bother at all.

That is utter bullshit of course, because Obama took the time to get a UN security council resolution which is something they never bothered to do durring the great Iraq misadventure. The fact that he was able to get a resolution at all was a minor miracle due to the fact that both Russia & China had veto power and their own political interests do not involve challenging authoritarian regimes or curbing their ability to force their will on their own people. Makes me think Obama is a little more savy than he is given credit for. It's a nice thought but it may only be the fact that the daily news is filled with the atrocities of the remnant of Libyan government that still remains loyal, as well the bizarre and erratic behaviour of the Dictator Qaddafi and his arrogant offspring that forced Russia and China to abstain from the vote.

The argument that the west is turning a blind eye to similar atrocities being committed by Middle East allies does have merit. Western powers have been quick to support political strongmen throughout the region that also shoot dissenters in an effort to 'stabilize the region' and shore up their own political interest. I.E. Get all the oil. but this doesn't mean its wrong to protect civillians from a brutal illegitemate regime.

The line on Mubarak used to be that “he may be and asshole, but he's OUR asshole”. Now it seems that logic has switched to “he may be OUR asshole, but he's still an asshole.” Because brutal and repressive regimes are finding it harder to conceal the tactics they use rule the people it will get harder and harder for the West to continue to support these illegitimate regimes. Sunshine really is the best antiseptic.

To all those would argue that these good people who are literally fighting and dying in the streets for the right to decide who runs their country are “not ready for democracy.” I beg to differ. This argument is disengenuous and smacks of colonialist sentiment and a paternalistic atitude. The Truth is The only legitimacy ANY government posessess is the consent of it's citizens to be governed. In this regard the events of first part of 2011 should serve as evidence that all authoritarian governments are Illegitimate and only governments that serve the will of their citizens will get to survive in the long run. Viva La Revolución.

P.S. We are soon going to have an election here where i live in Canada and in that spirit I would to like to urge anyone who is lucky enough to live in a democracy to exercise their right to vote and not take for granted the rights some people have to fight and die to win.

Anonymous said...

Are you saying you've never thought it possible that the Islamist Libya Rebels might do some ethnic cleansing themselves?

Here's what happens when you get involved:

Don't think it possible? Let's give you a little history lesson shall we: The U.S. has a long, complicated, and dark history of arming rebel groups around the world. On December 6, 1984, as the U.S. increased its funding to anti-Soviet Afghan rebels to tens of millions of dollars in weapons and supplies, CIA Director William Casey wrote in a classified memo, "Unless U.S. policy is redesigned to achieve a broader attack on Soviet vulnerabilities it cannot restore independence to Afghanistan." The next year, he got a quarter of a billion dollars, all quietly siphoned out of leftover Pentagon budgets by secret Congressional authorization. In the search to spend that money, a CIA officer wrote in another classified memo, "analytically, the best fighters - the best organized fighters - were the fundamentalists." The memo concluded that the best such fundamentalist fighter and target for U.S. funding was one Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, a brutal mujahideen commander who would later join the Taliban, with which he is still battling the U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan. There was also our support for the anti-communist militias in Argentina and Honduras led us to directly train some of the fighters that later evolved into outright death squads. Nixon-era CIA operations in Chile helped Augusto Pinochet's takeover by military coup, which later ended with Pinochet's arrest as a war criminal for the mass murder and torture. The Nicaraguan contras, whom we armed in the 1980s to terrorize the Marxist government, instead terrorized civilians, whom they tortured and killed in large numbers. The U.S.'s support for the rise of the Khmer Rouge, remembered for their genocide of nearly 2 million Cambodians, is more ambiguous and complicated. At the very least, they enjoyed tacit U.S. tolerance as long as they fought Communist Vietnam. The most common outcome of U.S.-funded rebellions has been to create instability and violence that, whether in the form of intractable insurgencies or low-level sectarian fighting, tends to last far longer than whatever political conflict they were meant to resolve. The flood of arms - particularly the easy-to-use, impossible-to-destroy, grimly effective Kalashnikov rifle variants - make weapons so prolific and so cheap that terrorism, criminal gangs better armed than the police, and militias of every political and religious stripe are all but impossible to stamp out. By the time that CIA funding dries up, young men who have made their living for years fighting on the American dime have no other way to support their family than killing for hire. Wealthy, extremist sheikhs and would-be sheikhs on the Arabian Peninsula are always happy to write checks in pursuit of their Islamist dreams, as they have done in support of Afghan and Pakistani militants for decades. Violence begets violence, instability begets instability, and the U.S. tactic of arming rebels has been incredibly successful at fomenting both, but has done little to end either, often creating problems far outsizing those we originally meant to solve.

Anonymous said...

Bush and Obama not so different:

Approximately 1.5 years later, Obama has not ended the war in Iraq, as promised. He has not closed Guantanamo Bay, as promised. He has not ended the military tribunals, he once stopped. And he did not end the Patriot Act he once said he would vote to repeal. He did, however, launched 122 missiles into Libya over the weekend, according to ABC News. Perhaps this is what the Nobel Committee was thinking of when they said Obama makes extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and what Obama took as a call to action?

Bush got UN Approval just like Obama did:

UN resolution 1441 doesn’t stand alone. It ties back to prior resolutions including UN resolution 678 from 1990, which explicitly authorized the use of force. This coupled with the “material breach” argument, which even Hans Blix says Iraq was in violation, provides the trigger (at least to an unbiased thinking person). But how is all this relevant to right now… to Nobel Peace Prize winning Obama, President of an unprovoked country, attacking Libya, a sovereign nation in the Middle East, without Congressional approval?

Anonymous said...

The countries that had "boots on the ground" in Iraq in October 2003 were so many and varied that is made a mockery of the accusation that the united states was acting unilaterally there. Taken alphabetically there were Albanians peace-keeping in northern Iraq; Azerbaijanis protecting religious and historic monuments; 7,400 britons with more on the way; Bulgarians patrolling Karbala, south of Baghdad; centeral american and dominican republic troops in south-centeral Iraq; Czech military police; Danish light infantary units; a battalion of Dutch Marines; Estonian mine-divers and cargo-handlers; Georgian sappers and medics; a Hungarian transportation contingent; 3,000 Italians, Moldovan de-mining experts; New Zealand and Norwegian army engineers; soilders and police from the Philippines; no fewer than 2,400 poles; Portuguese policemen; 800 Romanians; Slovakian military engineers; some South Koreans; 1,300 Spaniards; Thais assigned to humanitarian operations; over 1,600 Ukrainians from a Mechanised unit; as well as troops from El Salvador, Honduras, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia and Nicaragua. This was hardly the United states "going it alone", as the domestic and foreign opponents of the war constantly alleged."

(main source: A history of the English speaking people since 1900: page 614 - 615)

Anonymous said...

You think with your a wounded animal. grow up. americans dont have money to fight other peoples' wars. you can 'support' it all you want, but truth is, it works against us. stick to your country and worry about your own .

Scatler said...

Anyone who supports this crap should go sign up. and Are you gonna tell me this cause is righteous if fundies take over Libya and turn it into another Sharia Caliphate? Don't fool yourself into thinking everyone HATES Mr. Gaddafi. You may nourish yourself on the video loop of Saddam/Hitler/Ho Chi Min/Castro/Gaddafi's tyrannical atrocities and love to spread liberal values but most countries don't want the kind of "democracy" that's blasted into their country in the form of TOmahawk missiles and "smart" bombs. That man isn't a threat to you or I. Reactionaries have been painting him as Hitler incarnate, well last I checked he wasn't bombing sovereign countries(like gee, who does that these days...) and genociding their populations. We have so far spend 60 billion dollars that we could have used to AID OUR FRIENDS IN JAPAN. But I guess it wouldn't have given our arms industry billions of dollars to do so.

Suppose even "enlightened" atheists have their blind spot.

Deniz said...

Wow, the ignorance in these posts is astounding. There were maybe 1 or 2 that weren't written by idiots. No offense but it's a little disappointing to hear so many people tell you how great your analysis is and how well articulated it is, when you yourself admit freely that you don't know much about foreign affairs.
Some problems with your piece:

-I have not seen evidence of air strikes against civilians, and the Russian military claims there weren't any, judging from satellite photos.
-the purpose of the no fly zone is to give the rebels an "even playing field", and this is discussed openly. It is not to protect civilians.

-you haven't taken into account that many Libyans DON'T WANT foreign interference, even a no-fly zone. How can you ignore what Libyans themselves want?

As unappealing as not doing anything to intervene might seem, some perspective is warranted. For instance, Israel kills thousands of Arabs routinely, Indonesia kills Papua New Guineans, etc. (both these examples involve American support). You probably don't feel the same urgency to go save them, right? So why is it so different to do nothing about this civil war? Probably because of how the issue has been presented to us, to a great degree.

There are definitely alternatives to solving this problem. Arming rebels is one possibility, although even some have spoken out against this. There isn't a huge, urgent need to engage in warfare against Libya. NATO's (i.e. the US') plans for Libya will be about taking away control from the people of Libya. As much as they hate Ghaddafi, they hate foreign intervention even more.

One thing we have to keep in mind is that the chance of a nationalized oil industry in Libya after the war will be near zero. To the people who don't understand the "oil reason", it's not about just buying their oil, it's about making sure American and European companies own the oil producing infrastructure and make sure that there isn't too much democracy in the form of economic sovereignty in middle-eastern countries. So that is one consequence of a no-fly zone, that Libyans will lose the benefit of their own resources.
The rebels aren't completely unarmed, they do have tanks, armored vehicles, anti-aircraft and even jets. The military were the ones who defected, after all and are now dominating the Libyan National Council.

Deniz said...

Sine this intervention will prop up a neo-liberal, capitalist-friendly government in Lybia, it could set the stage for further violence in the country if the people decide they want to rebel against foreign domination as well. This guy sums it up pretty well:

Alastair said...

Thanks for writing that, i value your opinion and i particularly took to an idea that you raised. How when someone is born into something (like freedom), they dont know what its like to not have it. Its really simple at first but it has complex implications on society when entire generations are complacent in the comforts that freedom gives.

Anonymous said...

People asking "Why there is no intervention in Bahrain?" should do some basic research to see who are on different sides in Bahrain
On the one hand they have a liberal king, who turned his country from absolute monarchy(his father dissolved parliament and never reinstated it) into some kind of constitutional one, gave more rights to women (like right to vote), appointed women to the Upper Chamber of their Parliament.
On the other hand there is Al Wefaq -- a party of Shia islamists, that have 17 seats in the parliament out of 40 and that made prohibition of female-looking mannequins one of its first decision written into law and after that sought to bring gender segregation into universities.
So I agree that by western standards Bahrain may appear not the most politically free country, but the source of forward motion, the motion towards the West and toward the Civilizaion there in not with Al Wefaq.

John said...

America has vast supplies of natural resources, deficit spending has been a standard part of monetary economics for the past 200 years or so, American businessmen and corporations can count most of the worlds wealth as being in their coffers and it can and should be taxed their government.

The notion that America or any other nation for that matter is broke is nothing less than a lie they tell you to make you submit to having your access to the resources capped while the shit sodden swine fatten themselves.

America has problems... Yeah the same problems as most western nations have, including my own:

Your own bloody corrupt government and majority population of deliberately undereducated and shallow fucktards who will most likely never lift a finger about it so long as they have their personal equivalent of night clubs and shopping centres.

Anonymous said...,0,5238438.story
Here's your Libyan rebels taking a leaf from Kadafi's playbook. Enjoy criss.

Anonymous said...

What if this intervention fails? It seems to be going that way. In that case, assuming that the US and its allies do not take further measures, then they would be forced to resume business with Libya. Essentially, it will embarrass nations like France and Germany, who will be forced to rub shoulders with the man they tried to overthrow, just so they can secure the oil that they need to run their countries. To avoid this fate, it is likely that they would have to escalate military actions against Libya, which then opens up the possibility of an a full scale war.

I am in no way defending Qaddafi or his regime, but employing a reckless foreign policy can make matters worse both politically and in terms of humanitarian costs. There may be good reason for knee jerk anti-imperialism. Wars and other military actions tend to have unintended consequences, and end up squandering human lives. That France initiated this is not a counter argument, considering that France itself had a brutal history of colonialism.

If you are going to be skeptical about religion, you should at least also be skeptical about wars/military actions, even if they are committed under humanitarian pretenses. I also find it strange that for all your criticism of Islam as an anti-human, anti-freedom religion, you are supporting religious rebels (many who belong to the conservative Islamic Senussi Sufi order) in favor of a tyrant who ruled in a secular fashion (with appeals to Islam every now and then).

I recommend Eric Margolis on this issue, he seems to be spot on, as always:

Sorry for the long post.

elieattie88 said...

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Anonymous said...

It would be preferable to us if other Muslims could handle the situation somehow without nonMuslim interference and dominance. America is stupid to do what it has done-making war in yet ANOTHER Muslim country. This is sure to entrench anti-Americanism everywhere. America is the great warmongering machine, the great satan for sure!
It's hard though because keep in mind that not all Libyans hate Gaddafi. I personally know a few who support him because of all the money he's given them to study abroad and cover their medical expenses and so on. It's a complicated situation that America should not stick its nose in.

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They ARE "doing it for the oil," protecting the oil assets from the ravages of civil war. And now that President Obama has decided "Qaddafi must go" (one wonders who in Libya elected him to decide this) it must be done quickly with minimal damage to the fuel supply.

I'm opposed in principle to these kinds of interventions. Of COURSE they're always for "humanitarian reasons." The US intervened in Cuba in 1898 to prevent the Spanish Army from slaughtering the Cuban rebels, and one knows what a blessed legacy this bestowed. Only in the most DIRE straits can it be justified.

In Libya, stay out of it until Qaddafi shows that his rhetoric is more than just macho posturing (Saddam's "Mother of All Battles" another case in point. If he does begin the butchery of unarmed civilians then one has the unquestioned casus belli to intervene in full, not half force, "remove him from power," etc.

What to do with the country afterward? Well, that would be dor the Libyan people to decide. An Iraq-style occupation is not necessary. One thing that will ultimately come out of this intervention (I'd love to be wrong but unfortunately I tend to be right on this) is that it will be the intervening forces who will decide the new government, its form and its rulers, NOT the people putting their own lives on the line on the ground. 'Nuff said.

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How dissapointing... you of all people to support "no fly zone" which means extreme violence on sovereign nation. USA shows what no fly zone means - bombings and killings!

SHAME ON YOU!!! I dont consider you intelectual anymore!

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The guy above, who is "disappointed"? Just a stupid jerk who couldn't think even if his cat's life depended on it.

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The no fly zone is righteous, but they should use drones instead of standard aircraft. Also they should put more effort into killing Gaddafi, which would pretty much solve the problem.

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you know, you basically have the same view of Muslim women as you think Muslim men do-that we're too inferior to make our own choices. in your twitter you make the claim that we are brainwashed from birth into believing burka is necessary. it's not that we're making an educated informed active choice to cover ourselves. no. we're too stupid for that. being women we're too susceptible to men's influence, we can't possibly decide to wear burka because we ourselves actually see the wisdom behind doing so or because we want to....... :S i'm sorry to bring the subject here but i just wanted to draw that parallel for you in case you didn't see it....

JosH said...

I am all for intervention in Libya, as long as the U.S.A don't attempt to exploit them later. sadly they probably will try to. The U.N should also just deal with gaddafi and leave lest it becomes another Iraq


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I support the intervention in Libya, but I think it's disgusting that NATO has only used R2P where the leader has no allies. NATO is only using Libya to show that they are vaguely concerned about human rights.

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So what, the brave NATO forces helped to overthrow Gaddafi. Congratulations. But as it was long known, the winners who call themselves "Transitional National Council" are by far more dangerous, authoritarian and aggressive. Not so much a win for democracy and all those great things, i think, just a win in an oil war for western "democracies".

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Everybody has to fight to be free. It looks like Libya has dissolved into a retribution campaign of various groups.

Maybe this wasn't such a good idea. We claim we aren't going to intervene in Syria. Let's see how it finally resolves.

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Encounters Nepal said...

Encounters Nepal Dot Com is an ethically governed and environmentally aware Trekking & Adventure Tour Operator. The company exists to promote and share with others the diverse geographical beauty as well as the cultural wealth of our homeland, Nepal, as well as that of some of our neighbours, such as Tibet and Bhutan. Predominantly, it is the mighty Himalayan ranges that attract visitors from all over the world to Nepal. Upon arrival, guests to our country are then also captivated by the interplay of the majestic mountainous landscapes with the overriding hospitality of the Nepali people. Our rich spiritual life and our many vibrantly joyous customs are born of the melding of the Hindu and Buddhist cultures which have co existed here side by side for centuries. This adds a mystical dimension to most travelers’ experiences in Nepal. It is this interplay of magnificent landscapes, of friendly and welcoming people from many different ethnic backgrounds and the complex, beautiful overlay of religious rites and cultural practices that make a sojourn in Nepal.
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Rabin Gurung said...

Adventure Mountain Guide Team has been a leader in providing high country Travels and adventure activities Trekking in Nepal, '' organizes Adventure Trekking, Peak Climbing, Package tours and river rafting for groups and individuals from all walks of life. We can assure that flexible design any program or package to suit your interest, schedule, fitness level and budget travels Service. Our highly experienced and professional Working team will be always ready to provide you the best of all trekking and tours services in Nepal.
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Web Master said...

Adventure Great Himalaya is a government registered Trekking company in Nepal. comprised of qualified and experienced professional Nepal Trekking Agency. Adventure Great Himalaya has provided thousands of high quality trekking and tours trips for clients from all over the world. If your interest lies in Trekking In Nepal, Peak climbing, Tours in Nepal and River rafting or cultural sightseeing, our professional and knowledgeable staff is available to make your stay comfortable and memorable. Leave your worries to us and enjoy your holidays in Nepal.
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Boundless Adventure said...

Trekking in Nepal is delighted to welcome to you tiny but amazing country in Nepal. When you will have boundless adventures, there are attraction sharing and memorable in your life. Nepal trekking company, found by the team of enthusiastic and the trekking specialists is devoted to impart you a fondest memory during your Nepal holiday with us. We have been serving not here in Nepal only, also in Tibet, India and Bhutan as well. No matter, what type of trip you choose in Nepal. Either Nepal trekking, rafting and cannoning, Nepal Tour , mountaineering, Nepal Peak Climbing , jungle safaris and Nepal trekking activities. Nepal traveling with us is more than just a brief to stay somewhere; it is a real connection with the people, the unique countryside, distinctive culture, the Nepali cuisine, the environment and the flora and fauna of the country. Nepal tea house trekking offering for small trekking groups and big trekking groups. We are offering you, as your choice trekking service as well. You will find out our Nepal trekking guide will be the warm hospitality and government trended license to lead the Nepal historical place And Nepal Himalayan ranges .
For more details click on the below links:
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Dharel Ajay said...

Welcome you all to World Sight Journey, a Nepal-based travel operator offering world class trekking and touring services!
Established a decade ago, World Sight Journey has been specializing in providing premier trekking, expeditions, and touring packages in the various hotspot destinations of Nepal. Besides, we also have been organizing hiking, jungle safari, river rafting, bungee jumping and mountain biking packages successfully throughout the popular destinations of Nepal. Since the inception, World Sight Journey has been proudly showcasing the scenic beauty of glorious Himalayas, the grandeur of incredibly diverse and wonderful Nepalese culture, amazingly rich flora and fauna, some yet-to-be discovered landscapes and many more to its valued clients from around the globe. We are so proud to showcase Nepal to the world.
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Anjan Tamang said...

Adventure Himalaya Treks is a Nepal Government registered dependable trekking in Nepal, Everest Base Camp Treks, Manaslu Trekking, Langtang Trekking, Annapurna Base Camp Treks, Annapurna Circuit Treks and more tourism related activities Company established by diplomatic knowledgeable tourism competent with over 11 years of perfect experience in the tourism sector. It has been well established as the prime service provider for excursion holidays in Nepal, Tibet and Bhutan. All of our team members are familiar with nature, mountain and the culture of Nepal with most having grown up in the Himalaya. We are committed on environmental friendly tourism activities and we take satisfaction in doing our part to preserve the natural beauty, respect the way of life of compare community, and their local culture and heritage.
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Anonymous said...

I can understand that you are suporting UN intervention becous You exspirienced how life could be bad unther the bad govrment. But its not all as it seams. The US is trying to use the rebels in Libia to put the govrment that would do what they tell them to do. They are not trying to help the people. My contry was bombd by the US and then nothing canged. We only got the new govverment that suuprts the America and cancer bcecos theu used the uranium in the bombs. You probably heard when Serbia was bombd we are clouse to your contury. The people may or may not be oprest but Who is US to give them freedom. They should get the freedom by thm selfs and not let the US to impose ther will up on them becouse it is not a freedom if other cotury takes avay uoyr sovernty.

Anonymous said...

I forgot to tell this to. If people rise up as one the revolution cant fail bcouse the govrment canot kill all of the people. That would be bad for it some one has to pay taxses and things like that what are profithing goverment so the people of Libia should do that thm selfs. Like the Ukraine.

Anjan Tamang said...

Nepal Everest Base camp Treks' s heartily welcome to you. Nepal Everest Base Camp Treks Pvt. Ltd. was established as a successful result of decade’s long involvement and long experienced in Nepalese tourism industry. Having had experience of operating and leading wonderful adventure Trips in some of the most captivating vistas of Nepal Himalayas successfully. we have been providing service with interesting trekking packages. i.e. Everest Base camp trekking, Everest three pass trekking, Everest trekking, Annapurna base camp trekking, Annapurna circuit trekking, Annapurna ghorepani poon hill trekking, Ghorepani poon hill trekking, ghorepani ghandrunk trekking, khayera ridge trekking, Annapurna sanctuary trekking, Poon hill trekking, Annapurna Trekking, Manaslu trekking, Manaslu circuit trekking, Manaslu Tsum valley Trekking, Langtang valley Trekking,Langtang Tamang heritage Trekking,Langtang Gosainkunda pass Trekking,Helambu Trekking,Helambu cultural trekking,langtang Ganja la pass trekking,Upper mustang Trekking,Mustang Trekking,Jomsom muktinath trekking,Upper Dolpa Trekking, Ruby valley trekking,Ganesh himal trekking etc to several kind of recreation loving tourist destinations since 2005 however we are keen of promoting our company service therefore.
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Saat Ghumti Thamel, Kathmandu, Nepal
Mobile No:+977- 9841902116

Arjun Simkhada said...

Dear All My Valuable Client
Family Adventure Treks and Expedition Pvt. Ltd. is Professional Trekking Company in Nepal. It has been leading since 2000 to till regularly and Repudiate Trekking agency, The Family Adventure is Government Authorized known as Tourism board Certificate and fully trusted thousand of client has been high recommend.
We are Associate of Trekking Agency Association (TAAN), Nepal Mountaineering Association (NMA) and Tourism board (NTB) we operate as your desire all the requirement for filling the classic and various Trekking region as some touristic and none touristic are in Nepal as. Annapurna Ghorepani Poonhill Trekking, Annapurna Base Camp trekking, Annapurna Circuit Trekking, Muktinath Jomsom Trekking, Pokhara royel Trekking and Dhampus Sarankot Trekking of Annapurna Region. The Second Part of Popularity Langtang Region is Langtange Valley Trekking, Langtang Goshainkunda Pass Trekking, Langtang Ganjala Pass Trekking, Helambu Cricuit Trekking and Shivapuri Nagarkot Trekking .
The Third Part of highly popularity in the world Everest Region Trekking is Everest Base Camp Trekking, Everest Gokyo Lake Trekking, Jiri to Everest Base Camp trekking, Everest three Pass trekking is adventure type of moderate Trekking in Nepal.

Details Contact
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GPO 14445 Thamel, Kathmandu, Nepal
Phone: +977-1-4700663, 4700434
Hotline: +977-9841244957 (Arjun)

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Rabin Gurung said...

Namaste and My Value able Travels Adventure Mountain Guide Team Leading since 1997 to till local Adventure Trekking and Mountain Guide Service in Nepal, we have team work with Rabin Gurung and Shusil Gurung offer you Specials Independent Trekking Guide,Local Guide Porter hiring, Freeland Trekking Guide hire, Mountain Guide Hiring in Nepal. We both relative Gurung family and strong Trekking Guide team Nepal. We assure that can give Excellent Service better then Trekking Company in Nepal. Because we are directly deal and self guide on The Mountain. Adventure Mountain team since long time to now challenging Himalaya and touring discovery better then better day by day our Experienced. We guide Trekking and peak climbing in Nepal As 12 day Annapurna Base camp Trekking, 8 days Langtang Valley Trekking, 12 days Langtang Goshainkunda Pass trekking , 7 Days Helambu Circuit Trekking, 21 days Manaslu Tsum Valley Trekking, 18 Days Manaslu Circuit and Larke Pass Trekking, 7 days Ghorepani Poonhill Trekking, 16 Days Upper Mustang trekking, 14 Days Everest Base Camp trekking, 17 days Everest Chola Pass Trekking, 12 days Everest Gokyo lake trekking, 23 days Jiri to Everest Base Camp trekking and Many other Trekking in Nepal. We talented to leading high light Peak Climbing in Nepal as Island Peak Climbing, Mera Peak Climbing and Lobuche peak climbing, if you need any further query or more information please can call or email us.
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Mobile: +977-9843467921

Sappa Lama Gomso said...

Welcome to Base Camp Trekking Tour! Hundred percent pure lands of highest Himalaya's adventures
Trekking in Nepal is one of the best adventure government registered company operating all adventure holidays trip to world most popular mountains Everest Base Camp Treks, Annapurna Base Camp Treks, Langtang Treks, Manaslu Treks, as well Upper mustang trek, Ganesh Himal Treks, Langtang Ganja La Pass Treks and all popular sightseeing tour of Ancients Kathmandu Valley and relaxing Chitwan Lumbini Tour on your desirable local budget for national and international travelers to Nepal.
Nepal Base Camp Treks (P) Ltd.( may be your next Trekking and Trekking Company in Nepal for any Trekking Agency in Nepal to highlander Himalayas Everest base camp, best mountain sceneries Annapurna Base Camp, recently promoting Manaslu Circuit Trek, several High passes Thorong La Annapurna Circuit,Gokyo Lake Chola Pass,Gokyo Lake Renjo La Pass, Chhukung Kongma La Pass, Rolwaling Tashilapchha Pass, Gosaikund Lake Pass, Kathmandu Valley Cultural trek and tour,Dhulekhel Namoduddha, Nagarkot trek, Bungmati Tour, Chiwan Chepang Hill Trek, Bandipur Tour,Pokhara Valley trekking tour,Ghorepani Poon Hill Trek, Annpurna Ghandruk Trek, Kanchanjanga north to south Pass,Langtang Ganja La Pass, depending small group travelers to joining group travelers on your desired budget to standard budget.
Nepal Base Camp Treks offers you very popular non tourist destinations as remote regions of manaslu Tsum Valley Trek, Nar-Phu Valley Trek, Tamang Heritage Trail, Ghale Gaun Trek, Kanchanjanga Base Camp Trek, Rolwaling Camping Trek, Upper Mustang Cultural Trek, Lower Dolpo and Upper Dolpo Trek on very reasonable social trek in non touristic destination to better understand your holidays with our professional team
Our team in Nepal Base Camp Treks is very profession of peak climbing experiences of most popular Island Peak, Lobuje Peak, Mera Peak, Phakchhermo Peak in Everest Region and Pisang Peak, Kanguru Peak, Chulu Peak in Annapurna Circuit Region and Tent Peak in Annapurna Base Camp.
We guaranteed you best services and trouble less during your lifetime holidays journey with our professional mountain local team and wish you have a nice journey and see you soon in Nepal here to dream your adventure awaits you, as I remain
Yours sincerely
Sappa Lama (Sagar) and team

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